www.newarkadvertiser.co.u...nhorst.htm
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LiquidFlint |
The Scharnhorst Mystery |
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Posts: 174 (04/12/03 01:18:19) |
After watching this documentary on TV I still couldn't get an adequate explanation for the discrepancies in the British log on its finally resting place.
www.newarkadvertiser.co.u...nhorst.htm |
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Tiornu |
Re: The Scharnhorst Mystery | ||
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Posts: 87 (04/12/03 09:31:43) |
Considering the setting in which the fight took place, precision in gauging the position of the sinking is no surprise. The British never saw the ship go down anyway. The "mystery" is more a hook for marketing than any great anomaly.
If there's a mystery about Scharnhorst, it's why anyone would build such a lousy battleship. |
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LiquidFlint |
Re: The Scharnhorst Mystery | ||
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Posts: 174 (04/12/03 23:22:24) |
Tiornu,
Can you elaborate on the faults of the Scharnhorst? This website might be of interest: www.scharnhorst-class.dk/index.html |
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Tiornu |
Re: The Scharnhorst Mystery | ||
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Posts: 87 (04/13/03 09:26:14) |
Scharnhorst had pretty good internal subdivision and good speed (when her machinery was working). The ballistics of her guns were okay. But apart from that, there's little to compliment.
In terms of mobility, she was handicapped by that temperamental machinery, by her poor performance as a seaboat, and by her mediocre range. In terms of offense, her main guns were truly anemic by battleship standards, and they did not necessarily work at any given moment, either for reasons of her poor seakeeping or because her main-charge canisters could cause jams if dented. (I don't know any other German ship that had this problem, not even the 11.1in-armed Deutschlands.) The fire control was WAY overdesigned, so snarled in complexity that they had to yank 20 kilometers of wiring out of the ship to get the system to work. Defensively, the armor scheme was a mess. The armor deck was far too thin, and it didn't even have the benefit of an upper belt as in Bismarck. The inability of the designers to squeeze the boilers into the allotted space meant that they had to include a little "hump" in the armor deck, a lovely little shell trap that led directly to Scharnhorst's loss. Her torpedo defense system was primitive (only the Germans failed to progress beyond their WWI system), and faulty joints made it even worse. Serious flaws marred every aspect of the design. She sure was pretty, though. |
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Barbarossa Isegrim |
Re: The Scharnhorst Mystery | ||
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Posts: 11 (04/18/03 12:44:26) |
Scharnhorst had pretty good internal subdivision and good speed (when her machinery was working). Tiornu`s way to comment on that she was the FASTEST when built... In terms of mobility, she was handicapped by that temperamental machinery, by her poor performance as a seaboat, and by her mediocre range. Funny, this mediocre range apperantly did one of the most successful anti-merchantman sortie of naval history.. In terms of offense, her main guns were truly anemic by battleship standards, and they did not necessarily work at any given moment, either for reasons of her poor seakeeping or because her main-charge canisters could cause jams if dented. Really funny, why to rate S`s guns by Battleship standards, when she was a Battlecruiser? The fire control was WAY overdesigned, so snarled in complexity that they had to yank 20 kilometers of wiring out of the ship to get the system to work. And this overdesigned, completely snarled and bad in every respect fire control enabled the Scharnhorst to score the longest hit ever scored in naval battles from a range of around 25 000 yards, against British carrier Glorious. Defensively, the armor scheme was a mess. The armor deck was far too thin, and it didn't even have the benefit of an upper belt as in Bismarck. Well at least how Tiornu would like it to be. Interesting way to comment on the fact that Scharhorst was the most heavily armored Battlecruiser of WW2 (save the Hood). The tradition of heavy armor for BCs was carried over from WW1, where it proved itself most usuful. It`s quite clear that Tiornu failed to understand German design philosophy behind their protective scheme, which was built around a layered design, like many modern ships of the time, ie. the Italian Vittorio Veneto BBs. The inability of the designers to squeeze the boilers into the allotted space meant that they had to include a little "hump" in the armor deck, a lovely little shell trap that led directly to Scharnhorst's loss. I think the thing that led to the Scharnhorst loss was more like it was sorrounded by a squadron of British ships, a Battleship, several heavy cruisers and destroyers. And of course if it weren`t for the destroyers who could catch up with her and put some torpedoes in to slow her down, the Battleship had no chance to catch her. Her torpedo defense system was primitive (only the Germans failed to progress beyond their WWI system), and faulty joints made it even worse. That`s laughable. That primitive torpedo defense system swallowed more than ten British torpedoes before the ship went down. Even most Battleships went down after taking 2-3 torps. The comment on the Germans never progressed beyond their WW1 system is a plain joke. One can look at naval history, German ships were torpedoed many-many times, but their TDS was usually sufficient to enable the ship`s survival. The same cannot be said about the ships of the Royal Navy, see the loss of the Barham, Prince of Wales etc. Serious flaws marred every aspect of the design. She sure was pretty, though. I think the only serious flaws we have here is in your heavily biased, decidedly anti-KM standpoint, which you want to support by distorting the facts. An unbiased operational history of Scharhorst can be viewed here: www.kbismarck.com/scharnhorst.html |
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Tiornu |
Re: The Scharnhorst Mystery | ||
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Posts: 87 (04/18/03 21:55:16) |
Distortion? Hm, let's look at who is distorting the facts.
"Really funny, why to rate S's guns by Battleship standards, when she was a Battlecruiser?" Fortunately, you now have the opportunity to learn something, if you want. Scharnhorst was a battleship. Don't agree? Argue with the Germans, not with me. They're the ones who officially rated her as a battleship. "Interesting way to comment on the fact that Scharhorst was the most heavily armored Battlecruiser of WW2 (save the Hood)." Since we now know that Scharnhorst was a battleship, this comment now emerges as splendid comic relief. "It's quite clear that Tiornu failed to understand German design philosophy behind their protective scheme, which was built around a layered design, like many modern ships of the time, ie. the Italian Vittorio Veneto BBs." Go ahead, BI, list those "many" modern ships. Apart from the German ships, the Vittorio Venetos were the only ones to make extensive use of anything that could be mistaken for an incremental system; and in their case, the Italians still made sure to get a 162mm deck into the scheme. What was Scharnhorst's deck thickness--105mm? Am I being unfair with my comparison to a full-sized battleship? All right, the closest competition would be the Dunkerque which, though she was 4000 tons smaller than Scharnhorst, had 115mm on the thinnest portion of her armored deck. Over her machinery Scharnhorst had 80mm, just like the French 10,000-ton cruiser Algerie. And the German armor deck could be hit directly after passing through nothing more substantial than the outer hull plating. That's your system of layers, BI. "Funny, this mediocre range apperantly did one of the most successful anti-merchantman sortie of naval history." Scharnhorst had a range similar to that of a US cruiser. Cruisers were, after all, the traditional commerce raiders. So once again, we have a 31,000-ton ship that rivals the capabilities of a 10,000-ton ship. Very impressive. "And this overdesigned, completely snarled and bad in every respect fire control enabled the Scharnhorst to score the longest hit ever scored in naval battles from a range of around 25 000 yards, against British carrier Glorious." I know reading comprehension isn't one of your strongsuits, so I'll repeat the fact that the Germans yanked 20km of cabling out of the ship in order to fix the FC system. They didn't leave her crippled. Who said the fire control was in every way bad? You did. "Tiornu's way to comment on that she was the FASTEST when built..." Didn't I just say she had good speed? Why complain about that? The only battleship that could match her was probably Dunkerque, that is, the only other modern battleship design in service by the war's start. "I think the thing that led to the Scharnhorst loss was more like it was sorrounded by a squadron of British ships...." Yes, I think we can agree that she probably would not have sunk if she had not been in a fight. The fact is that she would have escaped if not for the loss of speed caused by the hit to her boilers. Do you dispute this? Do you dispute that the boiler hump was a flaw? Do you dispute that it's a bad idea to wager your 31,000-ton battleship on the virtues of a vertical plate just 80mm thick? Scharnhorst was struck by about thirteen heavy shells, at least three of which penetrated into her vitals. Given the range at which the battle took place, this was about as bad a performance as an armor scheme could give. Scharnhorst was the only modern BB design on earth that would have had its armor deck defeated at the range where she suffered her boiler hit. "That primitive torpedo defense system swallowed more than ten British torpedoes before the ship went down. Even most Battleships went down after taking 2-3 torps." Five torpedo hits are confirmed on Schanhorst. The maximum serious claims would be eleven. The probable number is about eight. What does that prove? That overkill is a joy to the soul? USS Hornet "swallowed" sixteen torpedoes before she went down, but does anyone think that provides a useful gauge to her torpedo resistance? Check the Germans' own assessment of Scharnhorst's bulkhead joinery. Look at the extreme flooding the Scharnhorsts suffered after individual hits. "I think the only serious flaws we have here is in your heavily biased, decidedly anti-KM standpoint, which you want to support by distorting the facts." Distortion. Every single comment you made was laced with deceit. Were you purposely lying, or do you simply not know what you're talking about? A little of both, right? |
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Dougermouse |
Re: The Scharnhorst Mystery | ||
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Posts: 54 (04/18/03 22:50:14) |
Be careful not to judge the Scharnhorst and her sister as anything other than a Battlecruiser. Compare them to the Alaska class CB's and then see if you still want to call them BBs. If you do you have to throw the Alaska's in with the Scharnhorst as worlds' suckiest BB.
As for the comment as the world's longest hit at sea, that belongs to HMS Warspite (my favorite, so I'll admit upfront I'm biased). HMS Warspite hit a moving target at 26,400 yards which influenced the Italians to leave the area. My source on the Scharnhorst (which doesn't match up with some of the items listed on the link included earlier, BTW, so I don't which to believe) says the Glorious was hit at 25000 yards. I have another book that affirms the Warspite holding the record. The torpedo defenses on the Scharnhorst class were at best average, but both ships in the class lost several months (5 for Gneisenau and 6 months for Scharnhorst) repairing _single_ torpedo hits. Torpedo hits are just like real estate, location location, location. Gneisenau suffered a hit from an aerial torpedo (not as large as a submarine torpedo) and it put her out of commission for several months. (She was hit by bombs during the refit, so its hard to judge exactly how long it would have been out.) The system was most effective amidships, but towards the end of the citadel it became down right hazardous. The shaft alleys were used as part of the torpedo defenses, which was proven to be a bad idea. The areas around the turrets, already under heavy stress when under normal sea loads, amplified the damage if hit in that area. If they had been wider they could have had better protection. But if they had been wider they would have been the Bismarck Given the limits forced on the designers, they should be considered satisfactory battlecruisers. At times brilliant (like in the Scharnhorst's final engagement) and at times sad (like how the Gneisenau almost lost the forward 20 m of the bow to a torpedo on 20 June 1940). The final tragic saga of the Gneisenau shows how fate can allow glory and grief in one brief period. Had they both received the refit that Gneisenau was just starting to get (15" guns, longer hull, more freeboard and an alignment of the center of buoyance with the center of gravity (which would have helped with normal sea load metal stresses thus helping with the torpedo defenses)) I doubt we would be having such a debate. |
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Tiornu |
Re: The Scharnhorst Mystery | ||
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Posts: 87 (04/18/03 23:27:22) |
Since Scharnhorst was a battleship, how can we judge her as anything else? As for the world's suckiest ships, yes, Alaska certainly deserves a place. If she'd had some resistance to torpedoes, she might not have been so bad; but she didn't, so she was.
Scharnhorst and Warspite are in a tie for the longest hit. |
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Barbarossa Isegrim |
Re: The Scharnhorst Mystery | ||
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Posts: 11 (04/19/03 08:18:39) |
I beginning to worry for your mental shape, Tiornu. Really, I have witnessed that over the years your anti-KM fury grown so high, that you begin to loose contact with reality. But that`s your problem. Fortunately, you now have the opportunity to learn something, if you want. Scharnhorst was a battleship. Don't agree? Argue with the Germans, not with me. They're the ones who officially rated her as a battleship. ad1, I can only learn from honest and knowladgeable people. That excludes you in the first criteria. ad2, Name anything her you want, she was a Battlecruiser. She had emerged from the idea of a Battlecruiser as a successor of the Deutschland class, she carried on the charactheristic of a German style BC of being fast, heavily armored but lightly gunned compared to BBs. Official designations hardly matters, after Jutland nobody wanted to call them battlecruisers. Still Scharhorst is not a Battleship, as Alaska is not a Cruiser. Since we now know that Scharnhorst was a battleship, this comment now emerges as splendid comic relief. Primitive style, worthy product of the author. Still among all BCs, she was the most heavily armored. Her dispacement and charactheristics were comparable to the Dunkerque, Renown or Alaska class BCs. What was Scharnhorst's deck thickness--105mm? Am I being unfair with my comparison to a full-sized battleship? All right, the closest competition would be the Dunkerque which, though she was 4000 tons smaller than Scharnhorst, had 115mm on the thinnest portion of her armored deck. Over her machinery Scharnhorst had 80mm, just like the French 10,000-ton cruiser Algerie. And the German armor deck could be hit directly after passing through nothing more substantial than the outer hull plating. That's your system of layers, BI. Goodie-goodie, good old master of intellectual dishonesty, Tiornu did forgot about to include Scharnhorst`s total deck thickness of a 50mm+80mm deck=130mm, which can be more if we count the slopes as well? Of course he did not forget, he just ignored it, because he could not present a distorted-enough version without relying on half-truths, and selective reading. Scharnhorst had a range similar to that of a US cruiser. Cruisers were, after all, the traditional commerce raiders. So once again, we have a 31,000-ton ship that rivals the capabilities of a 10,000-ton ship. Very impressive. The fact that US cruisers had very long range doesn`t make Scharhorst a limited range ship. Shoudl we compare to her rivals?: Max. ranges: Scharhorst : 9020 NM Dunkerque : 7500 NM Renown: 9400 NM Hood: 5950 NM Hard to realize how did Scharhorst had small range comparared to the competition. On the other hand, IMHO, only complete morons would state that a Cruiser could come anywhere near the capabilities of a Battlecruiser... Distortion. Every single comment you made was laced with deceit. Were you purposely lying, or do you simply not know what you're talking about? A little of both, right? Well this must have been one of your lucidum intervallums, (brighter moment for you), for you gave a very precise description of your working on naval boards. You always want to show ONLY just how bad EVERY German ship was. Virtues? OH THEY HAD NONE! Not a single! Just faults. And, if they hadn`t, Tiornu creates some for them. It`s a very boring experience to read the same crap all over at warships`s, at the kbismarck forum, and now here. You have infested enough boards with your misinformations, could you just get the hell out from here, back to your trollcave? |
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Tiornu |
The Black Knight in Monty Python | ||
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Posts: 87 (04/19/03 10:43:54) |
That's why I prize your presence so highly, BI. I watch you spatter yourself against a brick wall, then get up and tell the wall it got the worst of it.
So what you're saying now is that you are right about Scharnhorst's status and the folks who built her are wrong. The fact that Scharnhorst was designed specifically to counter an enemy battleship, Dunkerque, is perfect indication that Scharnhorst was a battlecruiser, right? Check the ship's design history. Raeder lobbied for such a ship, and a Dunkerque-dueler was officially okayed on 20 July 1934. Do you have any documentation showing that post-Jutland jitters caused an elimination of the BC ranking in the German Navy? I'd hate to think it was just some fantasy that came sloughing out from her brainpan. It's occurred to me that maybe you could have your mom help you read my posts. That way you could avoid your confusion over what I said about Scharnhorst's deck protection. I wrote most explicitly that Scharnhorst's armor deck could be hit by shells that had previously hit nothing more substantial than the outer hull plating. The splitting of deck protection between two decks allows both decks to act against bombs, though at reduced efficicency; but when it comes to defeating shells, the upper layer fails to cover all trajectories, and it can actually endanger the lower deck. It will deflect shells downward and make the lower deck more likely to be hit. Once deflected downward, the shell has a more advantageous angle for defeating the lower deck. I'd refer you to ADM1/9226 which shows the official RN trials with split decks, but I'm sure I've already done that. Dunkerque's range was about 12,000nm at 20 knots. Kongo had 10,000nm at 18 knots. Scharnhorst was nothing special. But are you sure you want to talk about range? Remember what happened last time you got started? |
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Dougermouse |
Re: The Scharnhorst Mystery | ||
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Posts: 54 (04/19/03 11:16:22) |
Leaving the personal attacks aside (can't we all just get along here?), lets get back to the discussion on the ships please.
Yes, the Germans called the pair "Battleships" but we as historians have a job to call a spade a spade. Look at the Spruance class "Destroyers". Put Aegis on it and its a Cruiser. In 50 years Spruance and even the Burke class will be considered cruisers. The ships get bigger, but the type is changed to protect the budgets. Buy 50 cruisers? No way! Buy 50 Destroyers? Sure. Also remember that even the pre-dreadnought heavy ships were called "Battleships". To consider them in the same group as the Yamato is doing history a disservice. The armor belting was an attempt to try something new since the design limitations prevented a full layout. One of the goals of the split protection was to deform the projectile so its fusing would not work. Several times this actually worked, but removing a UBX from deep inside a ship must have been interesting work. I wonder why they didn't leave the main belt off until war started. Build the ship with the belt to be added on later so you could be under the design limitations. It surprises me with all the treaty limitations the most creative solutions were the KGIV quad turrets and layout of Rodney. Surely designed upgunning (the Scharnhorst wasn't designed to be upgunned, despite what a lot of people think), later armor upgrades, etc could have made limited starting displacements more usable once limitations were cast aside (aka war). |
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Tiornu |
Re: The Scharnhorst Mystery | ||
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Posts: 87 (04/19/03 13:28:07) |
Dougermouse, don't mind me and BI. All that back-and-forth is recreational.
If you subject Scharnhorst to the distinctions between BB and BC, you come up with the fact that she was a small, fast battleship. By the end of WWI, the distinguishing features of a BC were well established: fast and big, lightly armed, lightly armored. With Hood, we see a move to synthesize capital ship qualities into what became known as the fast battleship, which is exactly what Scharnhorst was. Her alleged BC qualities are tied to her small size rather than the skewing of design priorities, and keep in mind that small size is antithetical to the definition of a battlecruiser. Without accepting the French all-forward compromise, all the capital ship designs of this weight class and vintage carried guns in the 11-12in range. Scharnhorst was substandard in weaponry but not freakishly weak. The only other feature that might make Scharnhorst seem like a battlecruiser is her speed which, as I already pointed out, was about the same as the speed of the only other fast battleship completed by 1938. By 1940, we have several more 30-knot battleships--Bismarck, Vittorio Veneto, Richelieu. And when we look at Scharnhorst, we see she is armored on a battleship scale (a belt thicker than Bismarck's despite the size difference). So there's nothing to tie Scharnhorst to the BC label. If you want to see what the Germans had in mind for a 31,000-ton battlecruiser--and no, the Germans were not scared off the term "battlecruiser" by Jutland--check out the "O" class, which indeed shows the design priorities associated with the BC: lots of speed and little armor. |
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LiquidFlint |
Re: The Scharnhorst Mystery | ||
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Posts: 174 (04/19/03 17:30:31) |
Who had the best battleships and battlecruisers then?
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Tiornu |
Re: The Scharnhorst Mystery | ||
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Posts: 87 (04/19/03 21:31:09) |
Well, Japan had the non plus ultra with Yamato. It's hard to argue with 64,000 tons.
The Americans probably spent more $$$ per ton than anyone else. Iowa was exceeded in size only by Yamato, she came only after two previous treaty classes gave the designers some good practice, and she entered service pretty late in the game. I tend to rate her as the best BB design to see service. For reasons I can't explain, France produced two superb BB designs. Considering how unimpressive previous French BB generations had been, this turn-around seems especially admirable. The British suffered from their own over-conservatism and the failure to pursue modern propulsion and electric systems. They at least had the British tradition of quality armor. The Italians had some innovative ideas. With regard to armor, they were ahead of the curve; with torpedo defenses, they went wildly off track. For my tastes, their ships were too Mediterranean-specific, but hey, they were Italian after all. |
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Kutscha |
Re: The Scharnhorst Mystery | ||
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Posts: 19 (04/20/03 06:39:46) |
Dougermouse,
Barbarossa Isegrim has a hard time getting along with anyone that has a different point of view from him, at least from what I have seen on other forums. Just think of him as a form of comic relief entertainment. You should note, that for him, only the Germans can make top quality war machines, ie. the BEST. |
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Dougermouse |
Re: The Scharnhorst Mystery (Best in show for the BBs) | ||
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Posts: 54 (04/20/03 13:18:25) |
Best BB and BC, something I can chew on
The problem I have with this type of discussion is that the operational environment influences how ships would be able to perform. For example if the US "captured" a Yamato, and gave it a little TLC, it would win my vote everyday of the week and twice on Sundays. But in the IJN hands, the Yamato was operationally a bit of a disappointment. The ship itself was willing but the flesh (the IJN staff) was weak. The IJN was so interested in a Nelsonian type victory that anything less wasn't worth the assets. Also since designs were influenced by the location of expected action you get varied results. The Bismarck and the Yamato were designed for very different worlds. The US and UK ships were designed for both fronts, but the UK only really had treaty ships (which were significantly handicapped). BTW if I had to take a British ship in this dog fight, I would take the Rodney versus the KGIV and the Vanguard since I think the torpedos of the Rodney would be a hidden advantage. (Little known fact: that Rodney was the only BB to torpedo another BB, the Bismarck). If you level out all the operational factors (crew, combat doctrine, etc) and just go by the specs, I think it comes down to Yamato versus Iowa. I think all of the European BBs (KGIV, Littorios, Bismarck, Vanguard, Rodney, Richlieau, and the proposed Soviet designs) would have been knocked out by the bigger Yamato or the more modern, bigger punching Iowas. I doubt any of them could have sunk any opponents since capital ships of the era were rarely sank by just gunfire. Mission kill maybe, but not sink. Back to the main event: The 16"/50 was just as capable as the 18.1"/45, but had a higher rate of fire. The superior fire control(Radar) of the Iowa would have been a significant advantage. But could those plus a little luck work out the advantage in pure armor that the Yamato had? I think it gives the US a chance, but not enough to win regularly. I think given average central pacific conditions and same crew standards, etc, I would expect the Yamato to win 70-80% of the time. (fortunes of war like the first salvo of the Iowa hits the fire control of the Yamato forcing it into local control for example make up the difference.) Would the upgraded 1988 edition Iowa do better? Factoring in the Harpoons and Tomahawks (no nukes of course) I think that they would not have been as much as edge as you might think at first blush. Those weapons are designed to impact at or near the water line in the center of the ship. That is the armor belt and US Navy designs showed that they would not penetrate (which is how they do most of the damage.) The Burke has a distant relative to the armor belt as further proof(Kevlar for all my friends Had the Montana been finished, I think it would have been more than a match for the Yamato, since it was basically an Iowa with the armor to match the Yamato. The Fire control makes the edge. This one is hard to talk about since it was never finished. (or really started for that matter) Next novel: Battlecruisers |
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Tiornu |
Re: The Scharnhorst Mystery (Best in show for the BBs) | ||
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Posts: 87 (04/20/03 16:57:19) |
Your comment on operational environments is right on target. I get a queasy feeling when I think about Littorio trying to operate on the Arctic run, but that's not something that would likely occur (unless the Soviets got ahold of her as war reparations). Do British ships get a bonus for being adaptable to multiple environments? I think they do, but it does make head-to-head comparisons difficult.
I'd have to disagree on the Nelson. The torpedoes were a disadvantage rather than an advantage, which is why the Nelsons had their torpedoes removed during the war. The Nelsons were the last battleships completed with torpedoes. By the way, Rodney's claimed hit on Bismarck remains unconfirmed. Examination of the Bismarck wreck offers no evidence of it, though that by itself is not proof. Since Rodney fired off her entire load of twelve (?) torpedoes, it would be nice to think that one of the hit. To my mind, Nelson's key advantage over other British ships is her gun range. However, I still prefer Vanguard. She certainly looks better than Nelsol. Are you certain Iowa's guns are faster-firing than Yamato's? Iowa's RoF is usually listed as two rounds per minute. Yamato's firing cycle was 30 seconds at the loading angle. Yes, Montana trumps even Yamato, in my mind. |
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LiquidFlint |
Re: The Scharnhorst Mystery (Best in show for the BBs) | ||
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Posts: 174 (04/20/03 17:40:28) |
Too Mediterranean-specific
Can you elaborate on what this means? The German High Seas Fleet of WW1 has been mentioned elsewhere as being built specifically for North seas operations,and hence lacking the operational performance to act world wide like the RN. Does this mean restrictions in fuel holdings and crew comfort due to the shorter range of operations?Wouldn't an offside of this be the benefit of carrying better armour? |
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Tiornu |
Re: The Scharnhorst Mystery (Best in show for the BBs) | ||
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Posts: 87 (04/20/03 19:04:17) |
"Med-specific"--this is one of the operational environment factors that we've been discussing. The Italian ships were built specifically for operating in proximity to Italy. Their range was quite short by battleship standards: 4700nm at 14 knots, only about half of what Scharnhorst could do. Their guns experienced such high erosion rates that liner replacement would be a frequent task. Hull strength (here I'm extrapolating from the experience of other Italian ships) was not all that great. The metacentric height was minimal, indicating an exaggerated roll behavior (unless they somehow compensated, though I don't see how). Taking Littorio into seas harsher than the Mediterranean would likely have underscored exactly how specialized the ship was for its "home field." Taking her into the vast expanses of the Pacific would have been a logistical pain-in-the-you-know. (By US definitions, she would have needed new barrel liners after firing just a dozen or so salvos.)
German WWI dreadnoughts certainly were better protected than their British counterparts, but it's hard to see this as on offset to their more localized area of operations. The true offset is that fact they carried a weaker set of guns. Fortunately for the Germans, their ammunition was far superior to that of the British. Jutland would have been a victory for the British both strategically and tactically if the RN had used German-type shells. |
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Dougermouse |
Re: The Scharnhorst Mystery (Best in show for the BBs) | ||
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Posts: 54 (04/20/03 22:10:48) |
First a rebuttal (of sorts) then I will post my BC best in show.
The Littorio comment about home field is spot on. The design requirement for the Littorio only required the range be enough to do a return trip to any spot in the Med and have enough reserve for combat. They were lively in heavy seas, but being in the Med, that wasn't as much as an issue as oh, the North Sea. One Italian squadron (including the Vittorio I believe) actually declined to pursue into the Atlantic. They wanted the Med to be their pond and designed ships accordingly. The dreadnought era German ships were designed for the North Sea and not the open ocean like their British counterparts. The ships were also designed to survive more than inflict punishment (armor versus gun caliber) and only with the Bayern class did they get "equal" gun caliber to British designs. Enough WW1 rambling, this is a WW2 board! If this was a looks competition, I would vote Bismarck, Iowa, Yamato, rebuilt Andrea Doria, and my one vote that will leave everyone scratching their heads, HMS Warspite. Rebuilt she was gruff looking, but a good gruff |
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Tiornu |
Re: The Scharnhorst Mystery (Best in show for the BBs) | ||
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Posts: 87 (04/20/03 23:05:13) |
As far as looks go, I prefer Scharnhorst to Bismarck--the three turrets make for a more stylish and less symmetrical silhouette. My top award goes to the rebuilt Cavour--the lengthened bow keeps the turret symmetry from making things boring, and the whole impression is one of delicate beauty.
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