Dresden Fire Storm

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Dave AAA	Re: good and evil	#61	[-]
Posts: 315 (11/14/03 09:45:30) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	*Quote:* the German people were evil and thus undeserving of the morality usually reserved for fellow humans. Ordinary non-political Germans overwhelmingly chose to work or fight as hard as they possibly could to permit their government to invade other countries without provocation, to commit millions of murders, to torture millions of people, and to loot most of a continent. They enabled the Holocaust and a war that killed tens of millions of people. They received more mercy than they deserved. It is a pity though, about the minority of German dead who were innocent of being Hitler's accomplices. We would have spared them if we could, and even spared the other Germans once they were in our power. Note that the Nazis had no such humanitarian impulses. *Quote:* you cannot excuse the allies by saying at least they were better than the Nazi's. Given that to the best of our knowledge at the time, the alternatives to bombing cities were a Nazi victory or a prolonged world war, I certainly can. At least, the Allied bombing of civilian targets in World War 2 was arguably legal, unlike planning and waging aggressive war, violations of the laws of war, and mass murder, torture, rape, and pillage. At worst, it was justified by the defence of necessity, again unlike the much worese crimes committed by the Axis. Certainly the Germans are in no position to complain. It is frankly hypocritical for them to whine about receiving the same treatment they meted out to others, first, and with much less reason.
SENNA2	Re: Dresden Fire Storm	#62	[-]
Posts: 83 (11/14/03 11:14:39) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	If the majority of the post 1945, world power , signed an agreement on civilian bombing. It was because the line between doing the right thing and the wrong was not clear. Dresden being the above case.
Dave AAA	Re: Dresden Fire Storm	#63	[-]
Posts: 315 (11/14/03 15:28:34) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	What people thought after the war is irrelevant. In 1945, law, doctriine, and morality was on our side at Dresden. The law and doctrine have changed, the morality hasn't. You do realize, for instance, what the expected plan was if World War III turned hot?
sonder	good and evil	#64	[-]
Posts: 247 (11/14/03 19:38:37) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	Good Evening Guys First lets start with the conventions signed by the U.K. & U.S. and others. They are just pieces of paper. Since 1945 we have seen the distruction of Soul, many other cities in both North and South Korea. Hue almost distroyed in S. Vietnam. Other cities in Vietnam shot up very badly. By both the V.C. NVA, S.Viet troops, and Allied troops fighting with the U.S.. In Africia, Cuban troops supporting Terrorist there distroyed many towns and villages. Govermant troops did the same in the Terrorist areas. The Balkens, the M.E. Afganistan, the list goes on and on. And who inforces these conventions? Who has the Military force to make any potential target town or city, safe from this happening? No one, Not the U.N. France, Germany, Russia, theU.K. or the U.S.. It is all a lot of high sounding words on pices of paper. And nothing to back up these high sounding words. When fighting a war with another nation, or againest Terrorist, any nation with the best intrest of the civilians in the area of fighting will do all it can to keep the civilian deaths to as small a level as possible. But when it comes to the lives of that nations soldiers or the lives of the civilians. The lives of the soldiers come first. Just look at the detainies at Gitmo. The U.S. militarly has detained these people not in the U.S., where the courts could monkey around with how they are treated. Thay were put in Gitmo which is out side the juristiction of the U.S. courts. There they can be detained indefonetly, and interagated in the Militarys own time. These conventions are not effecting the real intellagence gathering going on there. There is a dog and pony show to the U.N. and other Libs. But that is all smoke and mirrors. Now don't get me wrong, I support what the Military is doing there. They have finialy gotten smart from their dumb,dumb days in Nam. I also support protecting civilians as much as possible, and not distroying cities or property. But only as far as it does not put troops at risk. If it does, then all bets ar off. If anyone knows how to fight a war againest a nation or Terrorist with out hurting civilians, I and the rest of the world would love to hear how that would work. ' that is my thoughts sonder
SENNA2	Re: Dresden Fire Storm	#65	[-]
Posts: 83 (11/17/03 11:02:27) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	Hmm, a piece of paper like the US constitution or the Geneva Convention. Anyhow, You are right, 70% of War Casualties are Civilian. Allway's being the case in allmost every war. And in WW2, the statistic where no different. The Allied bomb french, belgium, holland Civilian to liberate them. That's the nature of warfare. Impossible to get the tumor out, without killing innocent cell around. But, Just make sure you don't kill the Patient in the process. And at Dresden, two month before the end of the war. The Patient almost died. It was important for the allied to have a strong united Germany, has a futur allied. If they wanted to fight off Communist. Bombing Germany out of existence was not the way to achieve this. They had to soften up, their approach if they wanted the German on their side. Maybe that is why bombing of Civilian was reduce after Dresden. Not sure about this? Did the bombing of Civilian slow down after Dresden? Or did it intensified? Don't have the number in front of me.
sonder	CONSTITUTION VS GENEVA	#66	[-]
Posts: 247 (11/17/03 18:08:22) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	Good Evening; Senna2, if you would reread my post, I said that these conventions were pieces of paper. Because there was nothing or no one to inforce them. Now the U.S. Constitution on the other hand has the U.S. Congress, the Supreme Court, the Pres. and the Full backing of the U.S. Military. That inforces the Constitution IN SIDE THE U.S. BOARDERS. Before you say it, NOT GITMO. Anything signed by the U.S. or even by the U.K. will only be followed if the governments of either nation decide to follow it. There is no power on earth that can make the U.S. or the U.K. follow any piece of paper they decide not to folloe. Remember the Navial agreements signed by the U.S.,the U.K.,France, Germany, Italy, Japan,. I think called the Washington Naval treaty. Japan, Germany and I think Italy did not follow them. And who stoped them? Not the U.S., the U.K. or the leage of Nations. So now do you see why I call this stuff just pieces of paper? that is my thoughts sonder
european pride	the experts' view	#67	[-]
Posts: 5 (12/04/03 07:34:20) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	"The devastation of Dresden in February, 1945, was one of those crimes against humanity whose authors would have been arraigned at Nuremberg if that court had not been perverted. - Richard.H.S Crosman, Labour Government Minister "I have read the reviews of the biographies of Sir Arthur Harris with extremely mixed feelings and also Robert Kee's letter. (8th July). On 13th, February 1945, I was a navigator on one of the Lancaster bombers, which devastated Dresden. I well remember the briefing by our Group Captain. We were told that the Red Army was thrusting towards Dresden and that the town would be crowded with refugees and that the centre of the town would be full of women and children. Our aiming point would be the market place. I recall that we were somewhat uneasy, but we did as we were told. We accordingly bombed the target and on our way back our wireless operator picked up a German broadcast accusing the R.A.F of terror tactics, and that 65,000 civilians had died. We dismissed this as German propaganda. The penny didn't drop until a few weeks later when my squadron received a visit from the Crown Film Unit who were making the wartime propaganda films. There was a mock briefing, with one notable difference. The same Group Captain now said, 'as the market place would be filled with women and children on no account would we bomb the centre of the town. Instead, our aiming point would be a vital railway junction to the east. I can categorically confirm that the Dresden raid was a black mark on Britain's war record. The aircrews on my squadron were convinced that this wicked act was not instigated by our much respected guvnor 'Butch' Harris but by Churchill. I have waited 29 years to say this, and it still worries me." - A. Williams, Nottingham; The Observer, August 8th 1984
european pride	experts' comments	#68	[-]
Posts: 5 (12/04/03 07:36:21) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	"The devastation of Dresden in February, 1945, was one of those crimes against humanity whose authors would have been arraigned at Nuremberg if that court had not been perverted. - Richard.H.S Crosman, Labour Government Minister "I have read the reviews of the biographies of Sir Arthur Harris with extremely mixed feelings and also Robert Kee's letter. (8th July). On 13th, February 1945, I was a navigator on one of the Lancaster bombers, which devastated Dresden. I well remember the briefing by our Group Captain. We were told that the Red Army was thrusting towards Dresden and that the town would be crowded with refugees and that the centre of the town would be full of women and children. Our aiming point would be the market place. I recall that we were somewhat uneasy, but we did as we were told. We accordingly bombed the target and on our way back our wireless operator picked up a German broadcast accusing the R.A.F of terror tactics, and that 65,000 civilians had died. We dismissed this as German propaganda. The penny didn't drop until a few weeks later when my squadron received a visit from the Crown Film Unit who were making the wartime propaganda films. There was a mock briefing, with one notable difference. The same Group Captain now said, 'as the market place would be filled with women and children on no account would we bomb the centre of the town. Instead, our aiming point would be a vital railway junction to the east. I can categorically confirm that the Dresden raid was a black mark on Britain's war record. The aircrews on my squadron were convinced that this wicked act was not instigated by our much respected guvnor 'Butch' Harris but by Churchill. I have waited 29 years to say this, and it still worries me." - A. Williams, Nottingham; The Observer, August 8th 1984
Constantine	Re: Dresden	#69	[-]
Posts: 3 (03/01/04 21:20:02) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	Douger --- The debate over the legality of firebombing is a touchy issue as it relates to WW2, as almost every nation involved to a reasonable degree was involved in using it. I believe the bombing was overkill, but that is as far as I'd take it. If something like this happened today, that is a totally different story. Senna --- That depends on what you consider "of value". I'd say it was overkill for what was dropped, but there were viable military targets in Dresden. A smaller bomber force should have been used tho IMO. And the war was not technically over. There was plenty of killing being done yet, and the Russians were going at full bore. Firebombing was nothing new as well. The Germans were using it in 1939, and the Japanese were quite fond of it as well. Also, if you want to talk about revenge, then the entire bombing campaign over the UK could be considered one giant Hitlerian action of revenge. Dougermouse --- The Germans did firebomb cities, both on mainland Europe and the UK. Luckily, and certainly a disappointment to Hitler, they never did manage to fry out London (tho they certainly reaped a lot of destruction and killed many people). Liquid --- If one is to consider things like the topic at hand (firebombing) a war crime, then a lot of Luftwaffe blokes (that survived the war anyways) were certainly guilty and escaped justice. I would blame that more on our own government's horrific bungling of the investigations, trials and ultimate resolutions of such things. There are others that could have been chucked in too...pilots that strafed civilians etc. Both sides engaged in this kind of behavior however. Sad but true. Pan --- Many German women were raped (and certainly mistreated in other ways), but I do find many of the totals offered to be somewhat dubious. I think one of the biggest tragedies relating to Dresden was the refugee situation. I blame 99% of that on the Germans. They COULD have funneled them through elsewhere, but decided to send em through town. Probably not the wisest move in a war with a history of bad moves. Constantine
Admiral Oozel	Dresde	#70	[-]
Posts: 23 (03/10/04 02:29:21) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	These bombings are war crimes, no less. I consider Arthur Harris as one of the worst criminal of WW2. The "carpet bombings" or terrorist raids were largely useless, they have reinforced the german resistance, made more easy for Reichsdoktor Goebbels to fuel his anti allies propaganda in Germany and abroad. Yes the Japananese before WW2 and the Germans during the Spanish civil war have initiated the bombing of civilians but one musn't forget that the starting of the great cities bombings was decided by Churchill with the nuight bombings of Berlin in 1940 (with the furious answer of the Luftwaffe over London or Coventry..) War is awful , but when you are the champion of the civilization you must respect some rules and prevent the useless murders of innocents. That wasn't Schweinhund Harris policy alas!!!
Dave AAA	Re: Dresde	#71	[-]
Posts: 315 (03/10/04 04:16:26) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	*Quote:* I consider Arthur Harris as one of the worst criminal of WW2. Compared to the German, Japanese, and Soviet leadership, he's well down on the list even if you consider the Allied strategic bombing a war crime, which I do not. Even amongst the Allies, his responsibility is lesser than that of Churchill and Roosevelt, and only slightly more than that of the air crews who actually dropped the bombs. *Quote:* the starting of the great cities bombings was decided by Churchill with the nuight bombings of Berlin in 1940 How about Warsaw in 1939 and why is carpet bombing a town of tens of thousands morally different bombing a city of millions? *Quote:* War is awful , but when you are the champion of the civilization you must respect some rules and prevent the useless murders of innocents First and foremost, you need to win the war as quickly and with the fewest casualties to ones own side as possible. After that, one can be concerned with avoidable civilian casualties. As for bombing population centres being useless, it may not have been as useful as they had hoped, but it still had substantial effect. From the United States Strategic Bombing Survey Summary Report (European War) September 30, 1945: . . .Commencing in the autumn of 1944, the tonnage dropped on city areas, plus spill-overs from attacks on transportation and other specific targets, mounted greatly. In the course of these raids, Germany's steel industry was knocked out, its electric power industry was substantially impaired and industry generally in the areas attacked was disorganized. There were so many forces making for the collapse of production during this period, however, that it is not possible separately to assess the effect of these later area raids on war production. There is no doubt, however, that they were significant. . . . . . . Far more than any other military action that preceded the actual occupation of Germany itself, these attacks left the German people with a solid lesson in the disadvantages of war. It was a terrible lesson; conceivably that lesson, both in Germany and abroad, could be the most lasting single effect of the air war. [emphasis added] You may also wish to note that several hundred thousand German soldiers and some twenty thousand pieces of artillery were deployed inside Germany rather than at the front thanks to Harriss bombing campaign in 1942 and 1943. Considering the technology available to him, a Wellington or a Halifax was neither as survivable nor as accurate as a JDAM equipped F-15E, bombing large areas like cities at night was the only realistic option available to him short of abandoning the effort altogether.
husker3001	Re: Dresden Fire Storm	#72	[-]
Posts: 1 (04/13/04 19:34:00) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	I found this forum tonite and was impressed by the knowledge expressed on many topics until reading this one. It appears to me that many are trying to justify the bombing of Dresden but I have read no facts other than a general attitude of "the germans were all evil, so lets kill them all". What targets of any military significance were in Dresden. I know of none other than factories that produced fine china. Was depriving the german army of porcelain place settings going to hinder the fighting ability of their forces in the field? Also Dresden was a city with many hospitals. I realize that for the soviets, bombing hospitals might have been acceptable, however I find it hard to believe for the western allies this would have been a primary target. Also it was a known fact that Dresden had become a center for refuges fleeing from the east. Dresden was a transportation hub, however the rail yards were not targeted, and of the 18 rail yards in Dresden only 1 was damaged and it only slightly, it was back in operation 3 days after the bombing. So what appears to be the reason Dresden was targeted, terror, the killing of as many civilians as possible to break the will of the German people to resist. But look at history, does anyone really believe that by killing women and children, the soldiers in the field will lay down their arms and meekly surrender. No the opposite occurs, the soldiers are enraged, fight harder and the war is prolonged. Churchill and Bomber Harris targeted Dresden out of revenge. [quote]Given that to the best of our knowledge at the time, the alternatives to bombing cities were a Nazi victory or a prolonged world war, I certainly can. At least, the Allied bombing of civilian targets in World War 2 was arguably legal, unlike planning and waging aggressive war, violations of the laws of war, and mass murder, torture, rape, and pillage. At worst, it was justified by the defense of necessity, again unlike the much worse crimes committed by the Axis.[/quote] I found this interesting, in Febuary 1945, bombing civilians was an alternative to a Nazi victory? Who on the allled side had any doubt about the outcome of the war at this late date? Germany's armies were in full retreat, it was cut off from natural resources such as oil, and it's industrial capacity had been almost completely destroyed. Also almost never is bombing a target devoid of any military significance justifiable, and was legal only because we won. [quote]USSR has too many to mention, and they were orders of magnitude behind the Germans.[/quote] [quote]You kidding. In the opening Salvos of Stalingrad, for example, the Germans started with a bombing campaign which killed around thirty thousand civilians in a few days time in the summer of 42. It was lucky for us the Germans did not have much strategic aviation on any level approaching the allies otherwise many European cities would have been leveled to the ground. [/quote] Also this was interesting. I am making no excuses for the Nazi regime, it's atrocities are well documented. But there is ample evidence that the soviet regime under Stalin was equally as criminal and committed atrocities on a scale comparable to Germany. Also Stalingrad was a "defended" city under military attack, a completely different situation. [quote]The German Nation was collectively guilty of their actions in WWII. Dresden was part of their sentence. My only regret is we didnt bomb it sooner!!! [/quote] Interesting statement, so the American nation was/is collectively guilty of murder giving that over 200,000 germans died in American internment camps after WWII ended? They were not treated as Prisoners of War under the Geneva convention. Eisenhower declared them internees instead of pow's, that way keeping organizations such as the red cross from inspecting the conditions at the camps. Once again, I am making no excuses for the germans, but it is also well documented that few knew about the extermination programs, and to consider killing innocent women and children justified for actions unknown to them is mindbogling. [quote]Allied did their share of killing, raping, ect..[/quote] [quote]That is a libel against all the Allied soldiers who fought the Nazis and the Japanese militarists during the war.[/quote] It's a sad fact, but it did happen, it's all there in the history books if one cares to find out.
Dave AAA	Re: Dresden Fire Storm	#73	[-]
Posts: 315 (04/13/04 23:00:54) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	*Quote:* know of none other than factories that produced fine china. [sarcasm]Absolutely. In February 1945, a city of several hundred thousand in a country at total war produced little more than fine china.[/sarcasm] Ever hear of Zeiss Ikon A.G? Even before the war, they were Dresden's best known manufacturer. They don't make porcelain, and there were over a hundred more factories producing war materials directly employing 50,000 men. *Quote:* it was back in operation 3 days after the bombing. Of course the bridges over the Elbe were out for weeks, and Dresden thus rendered useless as a transport hub, an important fact with the Red Army seventy miles away. *Quote:* I found this interesting, in Febuary 1945, bombing civilians was an alternative to a Nazi victory? Interesting how you take a general statement about the strategic bombing campaign and apply it incorrectly to a specific incident. Bombing Dresden, as part of a systemic plan, shortened the war and saved Allied lives. *Quote:* Interesting statement, so the American nation was/is collectively guilty of murder giving that over 200,000 germans died in American internment camps after WWII ended? Never happened. *Quote:* but it is also well documented that few knew about the extermination programs, And even better documented that they knew that prisoners and slaves were treated abominably, and that they fully supported the Holocaust. *Quote:* It's a sad fact, but it did happen, it's all there in the history books if one cares to find out. Really? Name one action by the Western Allies that comes close to comparing to the death camps. Even if we accepted the lies about "other losses" we'd have a deficit of close to ten million. Compare the routine rapes, murders, and organized massacres committed by ordinary German soldiers in the East and the Balkans to any crimes committed by Commonwealth or American individuals. We won't even begin with the massacres, rapes, looting, and sex slavery practiced by the Japanese.
jade rat	Re: Dresden Fire Storm	#74	[-]
Posts: 10 (01/06/08 09:40:21) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	In world war 2, very few bombs hit the target that was intended. In fact, a study done by the British in ww2 found that only 1 in 10 planes dropped its bombed within 20 miles of the target zone. This is why mass bombing tactics where used by both sides, it was not to "kill civilians" it was to ensure the target was hit. Dresden, and Tokyo where ways of breaking the enemy's will to fight. Dresden was not only a major RR and communications hub, but also produced a lot of German war material. It was extreamly costly for the allies to launch bombing raids so deep into Germany, espcialy before the P-51 with the RR engine was developed to fly escort. That meant, that although the allies could have dropped conventional bombs in dresden, and bombed it for several days, with 2 major raids daily, loosing a lot of B-17s, Lancaster and Mosquitoes with each raid. This is why they chose a single "knock out blow" By sending 2 waves of bombers in close conjecture with each other, the first dropped conventional bombs, and the 2nd dropped fire or "thermite bombs and incendiaries" the conventional bombs where used to blow the roofs off of buildings so the 2nd wave would be able to inflict maximum damage. World war 2 was a "total war" war, their was simply no other way to win it at the time, technology would not admit the allies to laser bomb the target alone, with no or little collateral. So both sides bombed large areas to make sure the target was indeed hit and destroyed. But all the time i hear how horrible Dresden was, what about the fire bombings of London? the V2s launched to kill civilians (mainly targeted at high density Jewish areas)

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