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RalphZ |
Which vehicle was the best medium tank of WWII? |
Lead | |
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Posts: 73 (03/23/03 17:03:00) |
Feel free to give reasons for your vote
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sonzabird |
Re: Which vehicle was the best medium tank of WWII? | ||
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Posts: 8 (03/24/03 09:09:55) |
well, if you're talking the best head-to-head, it has to be the panther. it had the best combination of strength, speed and firepower (once they got the bugs worked out and they stopped spontaneously catching fire).
the only other tank here that's close is the T-34, especially if you consider the upgunned 85mm version. still the panther is generally considered the best. now, if you want to talk about most influential, or the MVP tank, the one that made the biggest contribution to its country's war effort, then it's the T-34 all the way. without it, it's doubtful the Russians could have stemmed the fascist tide. as for the sherman, please don't mention it in my presence... |
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Smoke286 |
Re: Which vehicle was the best medium tank of WWII? | ||
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Posts: 69 (03/24/03 10:16:17) |
I agree, although I have an unhealty affinity for the Cromwell
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Ferdinand Porsche |
Re: Which vehicle was the best medium tank of WWII? | ||
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Posts: 15 (03/24/03 15:25:52) |
Of the above mentioned, the Panther was definately the best. For my complete listeing of the standard version of the tanks:
Panther T-34 or Pz.Kpfw. IV Cromwell Sherman The Pz.Kpfw. IV Ausf. G+ was comparable with the T-34/85, each had their pros and cons. The German gun was a bit better, the armour was about equal, the T-34/85 speed was a bit better and so on. |
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Phalanx |
Re: Which vehicle was the best medium tank of WWII? | ||
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Posts: 175 (03/25/03 17:14:56) |
Who voted for the Sherman????
Later, Phalanx |
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Panfilov |
Re: Which vehicle was the best medium tank of WWII? | ||
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Posts: 17 (03/28/03 12:11:15) |
Sherman was good for what the allies needed it for. Where the Panther was not what the Germans needed at the moment in time it came out of the production line.
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SGM Maciborski |
Re: Which vehicle was the best medium tank of WWII? | ||
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Posts: 158 (03/28/03 21:28:23) |
What is a medium tank? In 1939 the Mk IIIe was the medium tank of choice. The Panther was Germany's in 1943/45. In most catagories the IS I/II could be equated to the Panther same as the Pershing. Then for the Americans I would take the M-26. It would suit my needs. If a Russian I would take the IS-II.
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2manmatch |
Re: Which vehicle was the best medium tank of WWII? | ||
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Posts: 47 (04/10/03 12:14:21) |
The T-34 of course. Panther does not count. It was a 'heavy'. Also the Panther was made to counter the T-34 threat based on research done on captured T-34's and KV's during Operation Barbarossa.
The T-34 was on the scene first. (Before the war) Even Guderian admits in his book that the T-34 was superior to all German armor during Barbarossa. If the author of Achtung! Panzer admits it, then it must be true. Sloped armor, good gun, diesel powered, great mobility and mass production. It was impressive then and is still impressive now. It was upgraded many times and had the ability to take on the 85mm in later years. The pzIV(also prewar) was not on par with the T-34 until upgunned in mid-42 with the F2 series armed with the 75/43mm. The pzIV also never had sloped armor, so that any applique armor had to be non-sloped also. It did however have a very good chassis design and the ability to upgun due to a large turret ring. It was quite a bit lighter than the other tanks in the poll however. It also used gas....it burned better than the T-34. The Sherman and the Cromwell are latecomers into the arena, At least the Sherman started with a 75mm gun, whereas the Cromwell started life with a 57mm. The Sherman had sloped armor, the Cromwell did not. the Cromwell was also much lighter. The Sherman did have a gun stabilisor mounted on it but I am not sure if this was origional issue. The T-34 shows off all of a medium tanks attributes, firepower, mobility and protection. And it did so first. |
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Kutscha |
Re: Which vehicle was the best medium tank of WWII? | ||
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Posts: 19 (04/10/03 21:21:15) |
A few T-34s (~1200) were around by the start of the GPW in June 1941, but there was none around in Sept. 1939, the start of WW2.
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RalphZ |
Panther is a medium tank | ||
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Posts: 73 (04/10/03 22:08:25) |
Quote: Quote: I would have to have to note that the IS series of tanks were definitely in a separate category from the Panther and Pershing. The latter two were both qualifiably "medium" tanks. The former IS tanks were definitely "heavy" tanks. I would note that the classification, in my opinion is not and should not be based on weight or a purely statistical comparison. Panthers and Pershings were intended to serve in "general purpose" armored units. Stalins were only intended to served in special breakthrough units in support of infantry. Purpose more than physical characteristics determine the classification. Granted, in a strict weight comparison, Panthers were "heavy." But that really doesn't say much about the role the vehicle served. To put a modern spin on this, SUVs come in many shapes and sizes. We all have a pretty clear idea of what distinguishes an SUV though. |
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2manmatch |
Re: Which vehicle was the best medium tank of WWII? | ||
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Posts: 47 (04/11/03 06:59:45) |
Kutsha,
You got me on that one,,,,,my meaning was Operation Barbarossa, the start of the Hitler/Stalin conflict. |
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2manmatch |
Re: Panther is a medium tank | ||
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Posts: 47 (04/11/03 07:16:03) |
RalphZ,
I still do not agree with your theory, that the Panther was a medium tank. You now put the Pershing in the same category as the Panther but it is not in the poll. If it is in the poll, then I would take the Pershing. Bigger gun for the HE effect and can stand up to the heavier German armor. But with the Pershing in the poll, everyone knows that the Sherman does not even compare. To make the Panther into a 'medium' tank because of its purpose is misleading. Remember that an SUV is a passenger car not a truck. But to compare an SUV to a Honda Accord is ludicrous. The main reason that the Panther was built, was to stand up to and destroy T-34's. To compare the two is exactly why the Germans made it in the first place. There is no comparision. The panther was made as a dedicated T-34 killer. |
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RalphZ |
Re: Panther, Pershing and IS | ||
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Posts: 73 (04/11/03 08:51:07) |
There are two points to address with respect to the Pershing tank. It was barely available for the end of WWII, which eliminates it from competition, like the Centurion I, in my opinion. Also, it was somewhere between the Panther and the Tiger I in terms of capabilities. But in deployment, yes, I would qualify it as the "next generation" American medium tank.
The IS, like the German Tigers, were specialized vehicles. Neither army intended these tanks to be deployed as replacements for their medium tanks. The Panther was supposed to replace the Panzer IV as the Panzer IV replaced the Panzer III as the medium tank of the German army. IS series tanks were never intended to replace the T-34 series. I think this kind of distinction is important in evaluating the purpose of a particular tank design. |
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colonelvalentine |
The poll | ||
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Posts: 10 (04/11/03 11:34:50) |
I've chosen the Panther as a standardized main battle tank in the panzer(armored) divisions-one regiment Mark V alongside with a Mark IV regiment each or very late war one organisation a sole mixed regiment.It had been planned to replace the Mark IV entirelly but the continuous casualities and war demands kept up the production of the pre-war delivered panzer. The Panther was superior to the Sherman and T34 but lacked the strategical mobility of the two allied main medium types.
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2manmatch |
Re: Panther, Pershing and IS | ||
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Posts: 47 (04/11/03 12:33:11) |
Whether or not the Germans intended to replace the pzIV with the panther is a moot point. They did not and could not do it.
What if they intended on using the Tiger to replace the pzIV and using the Maus as its heavy tank? In this proposed scenario, the Tiger becomes the medium tank of the German Army. Does the Tiger then get to be compared to the T-34? The Panther is a medium tank only by the standards of the German Army at the time. What other country listed it as a medium? The Panther is about 20 tons or about 45% heavier than the pzIV which is listed in this poll. It is at least ten tons heavier then the others. To compare the pzIV and the Panther and group them in the same class is not even a comparision. If they are both mediums, then what is the pzIII or the pzII? Light tanks? In response to the poll, my vote is for the Panther. I also would rather have the SUV over the Honda in a car wreck. |
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RalphZ |
Re: Defining a medium tank of WWII | ||
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Posts: 73 (04/11/03 20:01:28) |
Quote: From the perspective of other countries, the fact that the German definition of a medium tank in 1944 was the Panther did matter. It meant that a significantly more powerful vehicle opposed their medium tanks. This pressed them to respond with medium tank designs capable of meeting the threat. Quote: Yes, then the Tiger would be compared to the T-34. The issue is not statistical, it is tactical. In fact, the Panzer III was compared to the T-34 in 1941 and depending on the basis of comparison, it was either considered better or worse. The replacement for the Panzer III in the panzer divisions was an upgunned Panzer IV. Hence, a vehicle considered an infantry support tank in the early war was converted to a medium tank in mid-war and it too was compared to the T-34. The replacement for the Panzer IV was the Panther. Hence, it too was compared to the T-34. |
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Claus B |
Re: Defining a medium tank of WWII | ||
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Posts: 22 (04/15/03 03:59:08) |
Quote: The Panzer IV was never considered an infantry support vehicle, at least not in the German Army. Claus B |
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2manmatch |
Re: Defining a medium tank of WWII | ||
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Posts: 47 (04/16/03 08:06:30) |
Originally posted by RalphZ:
___________________________________________________ From the perspective of other countries, the fact that the German definition of a medium tank in 1944 was the Panther did matter. __________________________________________________ What other countries listed the Panther as a medium tank? _________________________________________________ Yes, then the Tiger would be compared to the T-34. The issue is not statistical, it is tactical. __________________________________________________ I would be very interesting then to put the Tiger in the poll then. _________________________________________________- . Hence, a vehicle considered an infantry support tank in the early war was converted to a medium tank in mid-war and it too was compared to the T-34. The replacement for the Panzer IV was the Panther. Hence, it too was compared to the T-34. __________________________________________________ Yet the T-34/85 is not in the poll. You are including in your poll a vehicle which is much heavier than all the other contenders, which was purpose made by the Germans based on studies of the T-34, to destroy medium tanks. I still take the Panther in your poll, but the T-34/85 is a much better medium tank.(In my opinion of course) |
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Gammelsmurf |
Re: Defining a medium tank of WWII | ||
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Posts: 5 (04/16/03 13:43:30) |
I would say the T-34/85, in large part due to the fact it had the by far best gun of the tanks listed. Even if some of the other tanks listed are better in some unusual situatin such as recon (cromwell du to it speed) or tank duels (panther) the T-34 was the best balanced and as i said had the best gun, so it was better at killing AT guns and infantry.
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sonder |
Panzer IV the best | ||
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Posts: 247 (04/17/03 20:26:46) |
Hay Guys Now me, I say the Pz IV was the best. Why? It was one of the few tanks to start the war, and finish the war. There were continued improvements in this tank that keeped it in the front lines through out the war. It also fought on all the fronts. Earned great respect from it's crews and foes. Its main gun was improved over the years of the war. And could still at the end of the war take out most of the tanks it came up againest. Granted, it needed a side shot on some of the late model tanks. But could still be a very deadly foe to any tank that came near, if it had a well trained crew. Yes later tanks were better in mobility, and firepower. but they had all the new tec to work with. The Pz IV just keeped going on and on. that is my thoughts sonder |
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2manmatch |
Re: Panzer IV the best | ||
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Posts: 47 (04/18/03 06:35:46) |
Sonder,
The Pz IV, although upgraded, still had the 75mm gun and unsloped armor. It was meant to be replaced by the Panther but was not and had to go through war by adding weight to its overtaxed suspension. The T-34 was available at the start of Barbarossa and was upgraded into the T34/85. Three advantages that I can think of right off for the T34/85 is the gun, sloped armor and diesel engine. |
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